Old style pitless adapter - Wednesday, 22-Nov-23 00:03:18 UTC We have 1 answer for the crossword clue "___ or it didn't happen".

The plastic ones will snap off when the ditch settles. Water is life. In the case of anything deeper than about 250' I would recommend that you have it pulled by a pro. 64 Sold By: Well Flow Products Select options; Sale! Dicken Pitless Adapter S Series $ 166. The connection is 8 ft down below ground and is virtually impossible to see as we lower the unit. 63 – $ 64. Simple Pump has its own pitless adaptor, a reengineered Merrill 50. The old well pit system has been replaced by pitless adapters which eliminates unsanitary and dangerous well pits. Pitless adapters are used to connect a submersible well pump's discharge pipe to a supply line. Some pitless units have a cable release. Old Style Removal Old Style Pitless Adapter Fittings. Pitless Adapters, Well Caps and Well Seals : Scroll down to find information about Manufacturers of Pitless Adapters, Well Caps and Well Seals. Little B Adapter. I had a pin hole leak in the threads of the adapter that screws into the pitless adapter and connects to the water line to the house. 00 Select. Break or grind both bolt heads on one side of the parting line. Is there a reason this is happening, no one else I know has this problem, is there. May 27, 2020 · The old well pit system has been replaced by pitless adapters which eliminates unsanitary and dangerous well pits. It is. PN: AC4. Old style removal old style pitless adapter pipe; Where To Buy Sandwich Picks Pokemon Scarlet Red. to 12 in. For CAD drawing contact sales at 800-356-5130 or e-mail monitorsales@baker-mfg. PN: AC4. Old style removal old style pitless adapter for sale; Demon Slayer Special Breath Training - Hedit Anime. The Plate is about 4-5 feet down in the 6 in steel casing. The last. If you do get a 1 inch npt to thread into the top of what i think i am seeing, make sure you have as many turns possible because you could drop the pump down towards China if you dont have good grip on what the other side of that pitless. The "nut" was a tab 1/4" wide x aprox. 800-523-0224 Looking to buy?. Pitless adapter and horizontal run of pipe need to stay below frost line. 8" Casing Size. New posts Search forums. Most have female threads for the lifting pipe, and you have male threads, if I understand. Bulldog & Snappy Pitless Adapters Why should you use Monitor® Bulldog and Snappy Pitless Adapters? Bulldog and Snappy support 1000 lbs. Oct 5, 2016. If the pump half of the pitless was bad, they should have seen that when they had the pump out. comOrder Direct from Us. 77 CLAMP ON PITLESS ADAPTERS Clamp on pitless adapters clamp around the well casing. The pitless can be carrying the weight of the pump and the pipe to the pump that could be metal or plastic. & CANADA 1-800-323-6259IL AREA 1-847-669-5135 | FAX 1-847-669-3230. This 1 in. A standard pitless puller will not work. Part No. So I have a Merrill/Weises pitless adapter, the same as shown in these threads 1, 2, 3. If the latch cable is not there you will need to fabricate a hook. If the pump half of the pitless was bad, they should have seen that when they had the pump out. Once the pitless adapter becomes loose,. Shipping: Not available Compare. 5-9/16 x 1 in. All-American, highest-quality certified red-brass castings and precision machining for years of dependable service. First, Good Luck! I ended up replacing the pitless adapter as the old style seemed to be impossible to seal. Again! Make sure someone holds on to the safety rope. One of the things it did was to eliminate the short piece of pipe problem. I may not have a correct understanding of exactly where the leak is occurring, but it sounds to me as if you are well needs a new pitless adapter. We'll show you what it i. Having more than one makes sense, if you are undecided which size to buy. PITLESS ADAPTER SS 1IN PAS97. Is there a reason this is happening, no one else I know has this problem, is there. Sold - 5 months ago. 0:00 / 3:05. Then lower it inside the well casing, carefully inserting the slide through the pre-cut hole. Break or grind both bolt heads on one side of the parting line. Pick Up: Not available No Availability. 928006 928003 928004. Bulldog and Snappy conform to PAS-97 (04) code requirements. Well Casing I. 56 $ 139. Not only do you have to chip away the cement from an above ground completion to do a pitless, but then there is not enough cement below for a proper seal. Well piping pitless adapters eliminate the need for a well pit to protect pipes from freezing. An advanced hydrant system that prevents contamination and freezing of the potable water service. You may need 2 people lifting on a T-handle, but you really should have somebody with a hoist do it. Solid brass design meets federal low lead regulations. Why People Never Smiled In Old Photographs - Vox: Old Style Removal Old Style Pitless Adapter Plate. Wednesday, 22-Nov-23 00:03:18 UTC We have 1 answer for the crossword clue "___ or it didn't happen". As a result, most Heat-Line systems, including Retro-Line can be installed by homeowners; however, Heat-Line commonly recommends. Snappy and Bulldog pitless adapters are certified under the standards of the Pitless Adapter Division of the Water Systems Council (PAS-l). CLEAR WAY PITLESS ADAPTERS - STEEL CASING Clear way pitless adapters come with a strap that wraps around a steel well casing to secure it in place. Or fastest delivery Mon, Dec 18. Since 1949, Merrill Manufacturing has strived to be the best supplier in the water well industry. Chris explains what a pitless adapter is used for and how they are installed. You can also consider a combined power plug adapter/voltage converter. A medicine that disrupts the DNA. A spool pitless adapter is made up of two key components: the spool and the discharge housing. May 14, 2018 · Chris explains what a pitless adapter is used for and how they are installed. It is desirable to have the ground slope away, from pitless unit case, in all directions. Drop & Discharge. Well Casing I. There are two popular types of pitless adapters differentiated based on their operation and connection mechanism. The general purpose of a pitless adapter is to provide a water tight, 90° connection below the frost line. I think the pitless adapter, which eliminated unsanitary well pits here in the North, has been one of the great advances of our industry in the last 50 to 60 years. A more modern device, the pitless adapter which permits a water tight piping connection out through the side of the well casing is shown in our sketch. I planned ahead and had a 1 inch NPT pipe tap handy, and a companion socket + ratchet to chase the threads. Having troubles identifying your pitless unit, kit or adapter? Here are a few easy steps to help you determine your product. Further back from your tank is the pitless adapter. The "nut" was a tab 1/4" wide x aprox. I assume that is to protect the o-rings when pulling the spool. Stain opacity levels range from clear to solid, with the amount of pigment in a stain determining its opacity. Sep 20, 2012 · I plan on pulling my submersable pump [4" in a 5" casing well depth 55'] it has a pitless adapter and what looks like a spring loaded lever at that point touching the opposite side of the casing from the pitless adapter. Well construction. More Buying Choices. Pitless Adapters in General The general purpose of a pitless adapter is to provide a water tight, 90° connection below the frost line. Welding the Pitless Unit to the Well Casing: All BII Pitless Units are supplied with beveled weld nipple (FIG. Another Chapter on Pitless Adapters | 2016-02-01 | The Driller. Bulldog Pitless contains less than 0. When you pull the pitless half up from the stationary part, you are lifting the pipe, wire, pump, and everything at the same time. WHITEWATER MANUFACTURING - 1849PAT95, PAT95, 95 gallon Pitless Adapter Tank with Spool and Cap, 5. This is most likely what you have down the well. You might be able to put an ezy-out on the end of the pull pipe and unscrew the broken threads out of the pitless. southern oregon. The casing above ground is 6" ID and 6-5/8"" OD. You will pull the pitless, and measure diameters. Hole Size. Monitor PS Domestic Kwikonect Style Pitless Units; Monitor PS Domestic Kwikonect Style Pitless Units - Limited Pressure Apps. HOME PLUMBER Universal Bronze Pitless Adapter. Messages 7,435 Reaction score 551 Points 113 Location NW Ontario, Canada. Another Chapter on Pitless Adapters | 2016-02-01 | The Driller. Generated on March 13, 2023, 10:59 pm. This allows the pump to be removed from the well for service without digging the horizontal run of pipe. The Bulldog is manufactured from brass. The first picture shows what the pitless connector looks like with the wrench threaded into it. A list of your connections will appear. The cap has an eye bolt sticking out of the top, and appeared to be held in place by 3 set screws spaced evenly around the side/perimeter of the cap. Little B Adapter. Old style removal old style pitless adapter system. 20 – $ 1,713. The pump guys should have replaced the o-ring when they had the pump out. On 2022-01-15 by Inspectapedia Com Moderator -. The old well pit system has been replaced by pitless adapters which eliminates unsanitary and dangerous well pits. GrimResistance; Sep 25, 2021; Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. A pitless adapter is a two-piece pipe fitting that allows well pipe to exit a well casing below the frost line. I would like to extend it to 12" above grade and install a 1" pitless adapter slightly below wherever the extension joint is made. Just use a bleeder orifice in that tee below the pitless. 1" Drop x 1" Discharge 1-1/4" Drop x 1-1/4" Discharge. I've found a "Dicken's clearway wrap-around" and also a "Maas clamp-on" pitless adapter that evidently have the. I borrowed a lifting pipe from someone and he uses on his pump. Note: Product availability is real-time basis and adjusted. Though humble, this framework for problem solving is rigorous and powerful, and it has resulted in most of. During the most epic episode of Demon Slayer, Demon Slayer: Episode 19, Tanjiro recalls his father's words while seemingly losing the battle against Akaza. Bulldog & Snappy Pitless Adapters Why should you use Monitor® Bulldog and Snappy Pitless Adapters? Bulldog and Snappy support 1000 lbs. You never have to worry about the Retro-Line pipe heating cable overheating causing a risk of melting and fire because of the self-regulating pipe heating cable technology. Shipping: Not available. Pitless adapters are sanitary and provide a fast and easy quick connection below the frost line. Yes, both o-rings are the same size. May 14, 2018 · Chris explains what a pitless adapter is used for and how they are installed. Website: www. The pitless can be carrying the weight of the pump and the pipe to the pump that could be metal or plastic. The ruins of an older inn, Serban Voda, are covered with glass in front of the National Bank of Romania. Pitless Adapter Construction Although various types of pitless adapters are available, the spring-loaded types are most commonly used. The reason I posted is to figure how to remove what I now learned is the Support Plate. The well casing is 4" and the depth of the well is approximately 80'. Typical 2" pitless adapter. Campbell PA800Lf Pitless Adapter, Brass, 1-In. You need to have both the cable that pulls the latch up and the cable that keeps the pipe from falling down into the well. Old style removal old style pitless adapters; Old style removal old style pitless adapter for sale; Old style removal old style pitless adapter plate; Old style removal old style pitless adapter set; 4001 Seashore Drive Newport Beach Ca Every detail has been carefully selected for a resort living. ‍ Pitless/Turtle/Clamshell well caps. Apr 5, 2022. Jet pump with a seal cross (seen at left), Box elbow and Pitless adapter (not shown). The general purpose of a pitless adapter is to provide a water tight, 90° connection below the frost line. The heating cable is not engineered to bend its way around any 90 degree or 45-degree elbow fittings. We chose to install the well pump ourselves, so now that our well had been drilled, the next step is to install the pitless adapter. Figure 3 shows the detailed construction and connection of this type. Bratianu Boulevard. Make sure to complete Part Three after you finish. , LLC/Monitor Division • Evansville, WI 53536 Phone: 800-356-5130 • Fax: 608-882-3777 • Website: bakerwatersystems. Approach the ruins, and when you get close, your. 25" screen telescoped beyond the end of the 2" casing. 1 Inch BRASS PITLESS ADAPTOR WITH 1 7/8 Inch CASING HOLE SIZE. Log in or Create an Account to see product availability. well casing. Glass U was coming in as a complex beast with a finish to match Y. Welding the Pitless Unit to the Well Casing: All BII Pitless Units are supplied with beveled weld nipple (FIG. Alec shows how to pull up the pump from its pitless adapter using his str. DQ Series Full Pitless Kits; PJ. Old style removal old style pitless adapter fittings. Note: the Well Buster will work only on pitless adapters that do not have cables or shafts on them going to the top of the casing. Christmas Carol Sing Along (arr. Box 392. The first pitless adapter that I saw in the mid to late 1950s used a spool as the sealing mechanism about 5 feet below the ground — at least here in southern Michigan. There is a hole through the center of it with 1" pipe thread. Or fastest delivery Mon, Dec 18. The general purpose of a pitless adapter is to provide a water tight, 90° connection below the frost line. You don't have to change out the pitless or do any excavating, just pull it up and put in a new o-ring. I took a zoomed in photo and included it as an attachment. The Well Buster is designed to be used with pitless adapters such as the Maass or Dicken slip style. 64 Sold By: Well Flow Products Select options; Sale! Dicken Pitless Adapter S Series $ 166. The good thing about the newer stuff is that it doesn't tend to break when it gets twisted up. Subscribe & “Ring the Bell”: http://bit. I am having no luck in finding out who made it or finding the new ring for it. PART NUMBER. I've found a "Dicken's clearway wrap-around" and also a "Maas clamp-on" pitless adapter that evidently have the. Start pulling up the assembly. Pitless adapters are a special fitting that attaches to the. Screwfix - Combo storage set comprising of TSTAK II and IV kit boxes. black underground pipe is developing a leak (though I don't see any wet ground--it may be too slow to cause a flood). Step 2. 8 PITLESS CASE- The extension of the well casing between the lateral connection and the Pitless Cap. xeLRjVTWLeEY-" referrerpolicy="origin" target="_blank">See full list on inniswelldrilling. Pick Up: Not available No Availability. 1 PITLESS ADAPTERS- A Pitless Adapter shall provide adequate clearance within the internal diameter of the well to permit. The following list of components is applicable to Figures 3-8. Redesigning the water distribution. 150 psi Neoprene and Brass Pitless Adapter. The Standard Pitless Units are available for the following well diameters: 6”, 6. In the old days, wells would be completed at 2ft to 8ft below ground, and a concrete vault would be constructed around the wellhead. Size Req. The first picture shows what the pitless connector looks like with the wrench threaded into it. Hello, I have a well with an old style pitless adapter that I am trying to re-install and I can't seem to get it set right in the correct spot to mate up with the plumbing to the house. I ended up digging and switching to a 3" pump so I could get it past the new pitless adapter. Messages 38,371 Reaction score 4,297 Points 113 Location IL. Sounds like you may need a different company. One of the things it did was to eliminate the short piece of pipe problem. View Catalog. PITLESS ADAPTER SS 1IN PAS97. Pitless adapters are used to connect a submersible well pump's discharge pipe to a supply line. This 1 in. October 14-15, 2017. DRILLING SIZE: 1 5/8 Inch - 1 11/16 Inch. Arrives before Christmas. 870811001 PRIN BIOMED SCIENCES. Product Description. The adapter is about 2ft below grade and the pull pipe comes up about 1ft below the top of the well case. Pitless adapters are used to connect a submersible well pump's discharge pipe to a supply line. SUITABLE FOR 4'' TO 12'' WELL SIZE. View Catalog. Kill the power, relieve the water press, thread the 6' leg of the 'tee' into the pitless adapter in the wellcasing and lift/pull with the 6" handles. Pitless adapter. Recreational activities near 4820 Seashore. 110 in. CLEAR WAY PITLESS ADAPTERS - STEEL CASING Clear way pitless adapters come with a strap that wraps around a steel well casing to secure it in place. 8K subscribers Subscribe Subscribed 119K views 5 years ago Chris explains what a pitless adapter is used for and how they. Your local Baker Water Systems Distributor or contact us directly 800-356-5130. MERRILL MANUFACTURING. Pitless Adapter – Import. Maybe one with a camera. Size Req. Goldeneye 007 Proved Making a Fun First-Person Shooter on a Console was Possible. The water pipe leaving this well to carry water to the. Water is life. Jan 1, 2016 · January 1, 2016. and is for drop and discharge pipe sizes of 1 and 1-1/4 inches. Aug 4, 2004 · Having just dealt with the installation of a submersible pump as a replacement for a jet pump in a 4" casing I can offer a few words of advise. Nov 22, 2009. On all these counts, a pitless adapter configuration is much superior compared to old-style pits. Same dirt should be fine if there are no rocks. The primary function of the pitless adapter is to provide a junction for the drop pipe in the well to connect to the water line running to the house. Pitless adapters are a special fitting that attaches to the water well casing below ground about 6 or 7 feet and discharges water through a buried water service pipe. Make sure that the rubber washer, "D" is making direct contact with the inside of the well casing. I've found a "Dicken's clearway wrap-around" and also a "Maas clamp-on" pitless adapter that evidently have the. Drop Pipe Size Maximum Load - Lbs Quantity List L1 L2 Price - A List Price Effective: April 27, 2020 Dicken CW-4-10NL 4-1/2" 4" 1" 2000 6 $ 356. Pitless Adapter – Import Certified Lead Free Bronze or Stainless Steel Buna-N O-Ring Vertical Position Indicator Part No. On 2017-12-29 by Dan ONeil. la chachara en austin texas

The general purpose of a pitless adapter is to provide a water tight, 90° connection below the frost line. . Old style pitless adapter

The well casing extends above ground and is covered with a well seal, which allows access for service and protects the well. The adapter comes in 2-pieces that slide together creating a water tight seal. During the most epic episode of Demon Slayer, Demon Slayer: Episode 19, Tanjiro recalls his father's words while seemingly losing the battle against Akaza. Pitless adapters are sanitary and provide a fast and easy quick connection below the frost line. Aug 24, 2009. Part No. I think schedule 80 black pipe (gas pipe) would have aided in cutting the threads (harder metal) I DID NOT HAVE TO TURN THE NUT. 1-1/4" FNPT x 1-1/4 " FNPT. Seal is PN 017904. The pump hangs on black poly pipe. The well spool is held in position by a hold-down spider [purple assembly at image top] and set screws to keep the spool from being pushed up in the casing by the pressure of water rising in the well casing, and O-rings seal the. Step 2: Next, you will need to remove the brass nut “A”, the brass washer “B” and the outside rubber washer “C”. Here’s how it works: A rubber packer is installed above the pitless adapter, below the frost level. A standard pitless puller will not work. Old style removal old style pitless adapters. Snappy pitless adapters are certified under the standards of the Pitless Adapter Division of the Water Systems Council (PAS-l). 8" Casing Size. I took a zoomed in photo and included it as an attachment. Pettrix New Member. May 7, 2022. Oct 15, 2012 · The original pump was replaced (new construction in '94) in Feb of '99, which makes it nearly 14 years old. Pitless Adapter - Stainless Steel with Insert Barb Connections. Jun 2, 2012 · Once the pitless adapter becomes loose, all the weight will be on what you are pulling on and if it is too heavy for you or it slips you could loose your pump down the well. 1 Baker Water Systems Division - Monitor • Evansville, WI 53536 Phone: 800-356-5130 • Fax: 608-882-3777 www. Some pitless units have a cable release. 20 – $ 1,713. LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades. Pitless adapter - BT Baker Manufacturing Model 1BT, 100 BT and 125 BT Brassy Pitless adapter Brass Pitless adapter with an integrated bolt and washer design. It is a 3 prong crows foot, with the middle toe being connected to a cable, that we have to pull to move up/down or twist clockwise or counter clockwise. Pitless adapters are sanitary and provide a fast and easy quick connection below the frost line. Our goal is to provide an understanding of exactly what they are, what the differences are and what they do. So if the pump is off of the bottom, there will be downward force. This is a particular type. The reason I posted is to figure how to remove what I now learned is the Support Plate. Log in or Create Account. Meets all State and Federal safe water drinking acts and regulations including California Prop 65. Phone: 712-732-2760. Sponsor Paid Advertisement. Baker Water Systems provides well system products outlined in this diagram; from well caps, pitless adapters, tank tee's, yard hydrants, well seals, tank fitting packages and more. A Spool-type Pitless Adapter. Well construction. Sounds like you may need a different company. Material Size Hole Size Required Load Weight List Price 1850LF Bronze 1″ 1-5/8″ 800 – 1850SS Stainless Steel 1″ 1-5/8″ 6,000 – 1851LF Bronze 1-1/4″ 2-1/8″ 2,000 – 1851SS Stainless Steel 1-1/4″ 2-1/8″ 6,000 – 1853LF Bronze []. 2-piece designs allow for the adapter to be permanently mounted to the well casing while still being able to remove the pump for service. The general purpose of a pitless adapter is to provide a water tight, 90° connection below the frost line. These obsolete pitless adapters can be replaced with a “normal”, slide style pitless adapter. ly/2CpXSsvHave a question or need help. All are watertight and frost- proof. ) A man died last night after being hit. If the old pump was set at 150', I would not go any deeper with the new pump unless you put on a flow. The 3/4" HP pump that was currently in the hole weights about a total of 60 lbs when it is in water, meaning still deep inside the well tube. 20 – $ 1,713. Sep 20, 2012 · I plan on pulling my submersable pump [4" in a 5" casing well depth 55'] it has a pitless adapter and what looks like a spring loaded lever at that point touching the opposite side of the casing from the pitless adapter. To further increase the energy efficiency of your Retro-Line water pipe freeze protection system, it is recommended to add thermal insulation and a thermostat. The bottom part is the motor. Unfortunately no matter how hard I pull on the cross arm on the top the thing won't let loose!. Why People Never Smiled In Old Photographs - Vox: Old Style Removal Old Style Pitless Adapter Plate. Part No. Alec shows how to pull up the pump from its pitless adapter using his strong son Ryan. BZ CLR HOLE PTLS ADP 4X11/4 NL. I have been reading about pitless adapters and talk about a release cable from a spring loaded pitless adapter. Well Casing I. Bulldog Pitless contains less than 0. 1822SB Lead-Free Pitless Adapter. In the sketch below, a guy or strut is suggested to give more strength. Figure 2 shows some common examples of couplings used to. I've watched various videos and most people seem to use only pipe dope/sealant on the barb fitting into the top of the submersible well pump. Threaded into the bottom of this fitting is a piece of 1" PVC pipe that extends down 48" from the top of the casing. Please see pages 1-8. Steel Weld-on Pitless adapter for 5 and 6 inch diameter steel well casings. 1 Inch BRASS PITLESS ADAPTOR WITH 1 7/8 Inch CASING HOLE SIZE. This is a major undertaking and hiring a professional well contractor is often the way to go, especially if your electric pump is over 10 years old (time to replace it anyhow). 3/4" long. , Whitewater WI. Sep 25, 2021. Most have female threads for the lifting pipe, and you have male threads, if I understand. 1 1/4". November 16, 2023. H2o-Mechanic Online Storehttps://www. Right-click the Wi-Fi adapter and select Disable. So the pump installer ends up with, in effect, a scrap pile of short sections of pipe. A list of your connections will appear. Keeping it at this depth ensures that the adapter and discharge nozzle do not freeze during the winter, or become contaminated by outside debris. You never know who you might be helping! Since it was just the motor that fried, it might have been possible to order a replacement motor (which would generate significant savings), but that might have taken. Release cable. Fits 5 in. Funnel-top female casting and tapered male slide for easier mating in well. MODEL NUMBER. Jet pump with a seal cross (seen at left), Box elbow and Pitless adapter (not shown). and is for drop and discharge pipe sizes of 1" and 1-1/4". comOrder Direct from Us. Bulldog and Snappy gaskets and O-rings are significantly larger and seal better Bulldog and Snappy are system pressure tested to 250 psi Nearly 30% MORE BRASS used in overall construction of Bulldog. Model J Pitless Units and Adapters Specifications are available in PDF format which you can view and/or download. and is for drop and discharge pipe sizes of 1" and 1-1/4". Mine was inside a pipe all the way up to the mouth of the well. The PA Option fits 5” ID. Jet pump with a seal cross (seen at left), Box elbow and Pitless adapter (not shown). When looking down the PVC pipe with a flashlight, it appears that there is some kind of. BZ CLR HOLE PTLS ADP 4X11/4 NL. All are watertight and frost- proof. Retro-Line is suitable to be installed inside potable water supply systems which have water pressure of 230 PSI or less. Well construction. There are three basic types of pitless equipment for your well: units, kits, and adapters. Please see pages 1-8. Solid brass design meets federal low lead regulations. Then get o-ring or rings. None Page 2 of 17 as of May 2022. Release cable. pitless adapter is used to connect submersible well pump discharge pipe to the horizontal pipe entering the house. Well Casing O. #1 Hello, I have a well with an old style pitless adapter that I am trying to re-install and I can't seem to get it set right in the correct spot to mate up with the plumbing to the house. I tried using a steel fence T-bar to try and pry it out but nothing. Pitless adapter should be installed below the frost line and on the side of well. The nut seems to just be used to fuse the upper and lower assembly of the adapter. I had a pin hole leak in the threads of the adapter that screws into the pitless adapter and connects to the water line to the house. , Inc. Old style removal old style pitless adapter sleeve. I saw the pull pipe and what looked like a cover plate. Pitless adapters are sanitary and provide a fast and easy quick connection below the frost line. It happens around here with 4 or 4. 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